Health & Fitness – An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Oh boy! I sometimes wonder if people should need to get licenses to reproduce. When religious belief is used to deny the need of responsible health care, it becomes more of a threat to those we love than a source of comfort and protection. What a shame. Such ignorance!
More proof that prayer does not work whatsoever.
You bring up a good point. It begs to ask should childbearing be a right? We have to have licenses for everything. Except the thing that requires the most responsibility. If the majority of people are not responsible enough to handle their automobiles, how can they be responsible enough to have a child?
If you have to get a license to get married you should definitely have to have one to have a child.
That is not proof that prayer does not work. It is proof that, for whatver reason, the answer was no. She is not suffering now, she is, if her parents are corect, in a better place. We are not privvy to God's plans, we do not know why or when he intercedes in answer to our prayers, and we do not know why the answer is sometimes no, even when it's something we think should be an easy yes.
But, I think these parents were wrong. Faith should make you grateful that the Lord has provided resources capable of preserving life, not make you refuse them. Very sad that these people did not trust God to provide doctors and treatment to save her.
Well said Nixie. How does the old saying go? "God will not help a man who will not act"?
like the story-There was once a man trapped on his roof by rising flood waters.After a while,someone came floating by on a raft and said,"Come, and I will take you to safety." The man replied,"No, thank you. I have prayed to God, and He will save me." Later, after the water had risen higher, someone came by in a boat and said, "Come into my boat, and I will take you to a safe place before the water overtakes you." Again the man replied, "No, for I have prayed earnestly to God. He will surely save me." Finally, with the water having risen up to the man's neck, someone in a helicopter came by and said, "Hurry, and come aboard lest you drown!" And again, the man refused saying, "I have no need of your help. I have great faith that God will save me." Soon the man drowned. cont-
Right before this story came out, someone wrote to our local newspaper (it's a page where anyone can anonymously voice opinons) said : If you are a true Christian, God will provide you with everything you need.'
That was in reply to an elderly disabled couple who had unexpected bills and could not afford any food, and asked for help from the community.
Now maybe prayer can feel like support, comfort as a suppliment to REAL support from others, be it food, medical, housing etc...
If those parents wanted to believe that for themselves, so be it, but when you are responsible for anothers life, that is neglect and regardless of their religious views, I hope they are charged with negligent homicide.
And now she is in heaven...
Prayer is good, but God also gave us a brain that we are supposed to use. When you need medical attention, you go to the doctor or emergency room.
Now Ricky will probably tell ya to contact Budda or Darwin....but they are dead. j/k Ricky. Hang in there...
"And now she is in heaven..." Ricky, are you displaying real sympathy or are you just being sardonic in this tragedy? I mean knowing you're track record on folks who are reliant on theology, and Walden? I simply don't get you're statement that "They didn't mean harm" Are you also kidding? Maybe subconciously they wanted to get rid of they're little girl, and are hiding under this veiled act of religious benevolence to mask they're malicious intent. For an unknown reason. They didn't serve NO religious order or any denomination whatsoever. I guess they didn't have the good sense that "God" gave a goldfish. I have zip-zero sympathy for them whatsoever, they knew just as everybody knows that there are conventional alternatives to medicine, and that they should've used those measures to help they're daughter, but they insentiently CHOSE NOT to.
Are we? Let's say for argument's sake; a parent crashes his car into a tree, manages to get out with just minor scratches, but his child recieves more extensive damages to the body, suffers internal injuries,excessive external bleeding in some places, has shallow breathing, broken bones, and is in dire need of medical aid, but the parent decides that prayer & prayer alone will salvage the health of that child instead of calling for an ambulance....the child dies.
Is that parent then condigned to a free "get out of jail" card?
Yes, they very probably didn't mean harm and it must be awful for them as well - but this is what comes off uncritically claiming to "knowing the truth" within whichever context, and that isn't restricted to religion alone. Where beliefs escalate to a mere upmanship of "I know more than you do" and someone gets hurt or even killed in the process, it becomes unpardonable.
So yes, too: If this kind of thing goes unpunished, society and its organizational incarnation, the state, will arguably lose all justifiability in terms of their own raison d'etre.
Interesting that you should say that about "knowing the truth" within whichever context. An argument could be made about medicine working the same way. (I know, I know, the practice of medicine is based on experimentation and usually works as intended. And anyone who sees my comments out here knows I'd never make the same choice myself that these parents made--certainly not based on "faith."
Interesting that you should say that about "knowing the truth" within whichever context. An argument could be made about medicine working the same way. (I know, I know, the practice of medicine is based on experimentation and usually works as intended. And anyone who sees my comments out here knows I'd never make the same choice myself that these parents made--certainly not based on "faith."
That said, occasionally medicine also has unintended consequences and does more harm than good. And sometimes the ill actually do get better without medical care.
If we as a society believe parents should have the right to raise their children according to their beliefs, then these parents, Christian Scientists, or others who believe in faith healing should be allowed to make their own mistakes, even in raising children.After all, children are entirely the parents' responsibility to take care of by law, but they're not taught how. If they're sincere in their religious beliefs, they're using their best judgment.
This isn't a point I would usually argue, but how far do we want to allow the government to control our private lives and how we raise our children?
Most consider withholding medical treatment unacceptable. Some consider exposing their children to second-hand smoke should be punishable by law. Child car seats are a good idea, but they're required in many (if not all) states. How about what you feed your kids? Certainly diet has a significant effect on health--why not regulate that as well?
Where do you stop?
There is no well-defined line regarding just how far the state can go in infringing on the rights of parents in order to protect a child. This case is obviously one where the state would have been justified in intervening, since the mortal danger to the child was both clear and immediate. As to second-hand smoke and child safety seats, I'd say the latter is more demonstrably lethal and immediate than the former.
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Jeesh, where to begin. I feel bad for the parents because they didn't mean harm. That being said, they should be charged with child abuse resulting in death. The poor little girl must have suffered a horrible death. The other two kids should also be removed from the house until the parents are able to demonstrate that they are capable of exercising better judgment. It's fine to believe what you want, but your religious rights end at someone's else's health.
We had a case like this in Massachusetts a few years ago where some "cult" members starved a little boy to death.
Ummmm, I've seen more pity and less hostility toward Susan Smith who intended to kill her children.
well, actually...it wouldn't be the first time that someone paid lip service to a religion or deity while deliberately committing a crime...I grew up in a non-Catholic religious school, and saw less severe forms of such depravity on a regular basis without the camoflauge of 'tradition'...is a flagrant criminal actually deserving of less hostility than a cold and dishonest one?
of course, the parents could just be religious-reading-impared dummies that can't figure out when they're being swindled into phony religious beliefs because some twit in charge wants to hear himself talk or have a new excuse to bilk money out of suckers. (selling of indulgences, anyone?)
"... I think its very good news, one less religiously brainwashed human on this planet is a good thing. I just wish they would all commit some form of mass suicide, such as a holy nuclear war between isreal and Iran, and Pakistan. Now that would be wonderful. Billions dead. Good riddance."
Yep, knew you were a whack-job. That you are an intolerant lefty isn't surprising, either.
Right! You should be bending over for George Soros!
I'd think GOD would be more than just a little disappointed with you for not taking care of his child when left in your care. Prayer isn't supposed to replace medical attention.
But isn't faith suppose to? Faith conquered death, but not diabetes?
That seems a little unbalanced.
No, faith is being able to believe in something larger than yourself without being able to hold it in your hand or having a scientist telling you it's ok or not to do so. IMO
faith is a belief in something that can't be proven. it's kind of the next obsessive step after fantasy
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith by definition is believing in something that you know isn't true.
Put faith in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets full first.
That depends on what you believe. Something beyond the material world matters to many.
Faith has never been known to conquer death, even among the faithful. Nobody has ever been resurrected by his own faith or anyone else's. Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, but these people were right. They did not have enough to do the job. If their judgement is so poor about such a fundamental matter as how much faith they have, they should not have children in the home.
Better tell Jesus to put Lazarus back in the tomb.
Not to mention, Frosty the Snowman.
Acts of God are not faith.
Got that wrong. See the New Testament.
Faith is what MAN has, perhaps in God, perhaps in other things. And it will not revive the dead. When God does this, it is not faith.
"Prayer isn't supposed to replace medical attention."
--But sadly that (or desperate hospital emergency room visits) is the approach Bush and the GOP Congress want the 10 million innocent uninsured American children (from whom they have fought ferociously to deny health insurance) to take when they need treatment for their cancers, decayed teeth, and broken bones. I guess it's just too bad our kids weren't born in Iraq. Sure, they'd live in fear of being bombed by us daily but at least we're funneling enough money into the infrastructure there (while our bridges and levees disintegrate right out from under us) such that Iraqi children can receive decent healthcare. God DAMN the Republican Party. ;-(
This is Bush's fault? You have to be a Democratic nut job. My god - I guess the rain here in Dayton this morning is his fault too.
No wonder your party will never be in power again.
Welcome to today's episode of The Weak & the Illiterate. Poorly educated conjob: I didn't state that this was Bush's fault. Where specifically do you READ where I claimed this particular incident was Bush's fault? Exactly. NOWHERE. I merely pointed out the fact that Republicans are willing to allow millions of children to go without health insurance and possibly suffer life-threatening illnesses and die. Now, please log off of Propeller IMMEDIATELY and do not return here to post again until you've taken a remedial course in reading comprehension. Thank you, kindly.
PS This time 2 years ago, chickenhawk wingers like you were flapping your gums nonstop and warning us that America would never put blacks,homos and a certain "San Francisco liberal" in charge of Congress. Your tiny little con crystal balls are shriveled up. Stop making predictions you can't back up. And have a nice day. ;-)
meso the fact that you just brough Bush into this conversation speaks volumes.
Poor girl, people have to learn that science and religion can co-exist and there is nothing in the bible against medical treatment. You can bet a million bucks that if the pope was sick he'd seek medical assistance, not a cure from God.
"meso the fact that you just brough Bush into this conversation speaks volumes."
--Well, no...Actually, what "speaks volumes" I think, is the fact that *you* and the Bushwipe above chose to zero in on that one aspect of my post and then you proceeded to lecture me on a point I never even tried to make. Where do I suggest that science and religion can't co-exist? Really, WHERE do you deduce that from what I wrote?
I never said the girl died because she didn't have insurance because I don't know if that was the case or not. However, given that Bush and the GOP (aka the "family values" party) have fought to deny health insurance to millions of children (essentially putting them in the same situation as this girl who DIED because her parents chose not to get her medical treatment) bringing up Bush and the GOP in the context of this story is perfectly reasonable. I'm sorry if you choose not to look beneath the surface.
Actually, Medicaid was always available regardless of the fate of the CHIP Program.
And still *more* con cluelessness. Are you freaking serious?! Medicaid isn't and never was "always available" to anyone (not even to all poor people) so why are you even mentioning Medicaid ( as if anyone can simply walk in off the street and get approved) when you know millions of children come from families with household incomes too high to qualify?
And why do you freaks keep pretending you don't know anyone who has been denied Social Security disability benefits or that you don't hear the stories of Iraq occupation vets returning home with PTSD and/or missing limbs being forced to jump through hoops to collect disability? You wingjobs know the GOP sweats every penny going into social programs . I can see right through you so don't even try to yank my chain. You cannot be serious...
Wrong again clueless Lib. I am well-aware of the availability of Medicaid and its spend down requirements. You are the freak mesodumb. Got any data on Iraq vets or are you just inventing anecdotal evidence to make a lame political point?
According to a FOX News story (so read this with a grain of salt) "The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he has friends who are doctors. He started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body, he said."
--Here is the part I don't get (and which I also think a jury might find problematic). If you truly believe in the faith of God, why wait until your daughter is on the brink of death to suddenly decide that the Deity is... I don't know--maybe otherwise occupied and that *this* is the point where human intervention is needed? As judgemental as that question sounds, I really do not understand how it's possible to switch back and forth like that. Her father was once a freakin' COP! Come on...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html
"Her father was once a freakin' COP! Come on... "
Even more reason to charge the couple with negligent homicide.
I'm just waiting for the full story to emerge. Until then, I don't know if or to what extent I think they should be punished. Regardless, this sucks for everyone involved.
Considering the times that my wife and I have taken our 2-year-old to the emergency room or the doctor's office, as well as having surgery on dogs and cats, I can't agree with the parent's actions. God can help your kid while you see a doctor.