And why do you freaks keep pretending you don't know anyone who has been denied Social Security disability benefits or that you don't hear the stories of Iraq occupation vets returning home with PTSD and/or missing limbs being forced to jump through hoops to collect disability? You wingjobs know the GOP sweats every penny going into social programs . I can see right through you so don't even try to yank my chain. You cannot be serious...

The biggest challenge to change is ridding one's self of addictions. Addictions are Ego based. Once addictions are removed (and that's the hardest part) then instinct kicks in. Soon you desire only things that help you. Even chocolate can be medicine if your body says it needs it! Your body is a smart device when the mind or limbic system is not out of whack. Drugs only trick the brain into releasing chemicals. A healthy mind can do better. The cumulative effect of unhealthy living is reversible, lest you get an arm cutoff or something.

Think Quantum!

maybe the Pastor thought I was 'unsaved'

maybe the Pastor meant if I kept digging long enough I'd die of a heart attack

and end up in hell that way!

:-)

I don't fear death in the abstract either, but abstract and conceptualizing it, and having one foot in the bucket is two different things

I'm afraid to die in that I'm afraid to leave this life 'unfulfilled'

as for the experience of dying, what it feels like, it may be the most pleasurable feeling available to us, for all we know

and as perverse as life is in all its contradictions and paradoxes, having the most pleasant thing in life being leaving it would seem entirely appropriate to me

Thoughts?

I just don't fear the inevitable. Death is going to happen to all of us. We can make certain concessions as I have done to try to delay that fact but it is not under our control. I don't fear going to hell, no fear of judgment or condemnation. I don't fear the unknown (maybe looking forward to seeing the rest of the show I missed). I just don't fear it. I have seen others die right in front of me. A couple with the most pleasant smiles on their faces. I've always been a bit different regarding these matters. But we should all make the most of the one life that is known. Never assume anyone is correct as to what is on the other side.

so you are off a fence,you're off the fense, I guess that means you are a very exciting person!! LOL, right! no need to say which side you are standing on, but how about proving without a doubt that there is no God! I'm not saying there is...but well you know, just as you think you know Agnostics are boring, I have to admit people like you that are so hate filled aren't boring, not exciting either..I don't have a perfect word for people that say and believe in some of the things you do.

These people like EVERYONE else on Earth need to be responsible for their actions.

That's because you don't know the secret to Christian prayer. If you want a bike, don't pray for a bike, instead steal a bike then pray for forgiveness for stealing.

Did they also teach you that you will go blind doing "that" without a condom on your hand? he he.

The point was there is evidence that justifies belief in things like referring to a transcendent deity in the masculine form.

Like I said before, can we just stop filling in the gaps until we actually have evidence to justify qualifications and quantifications?

Christians come in all flavors, from the surprisingly rational to the totally irrational

I once asked a Pastor at my mom's church if she believed that if I took a shovel and dug long enough I'd end up in hell

she said 'yes'

I made the illustration not to be caustic, but to make sure she understood my question if she thought hell was a physical place.

If you want to be technical there is no such thing as a living Christian; like Kamikazees, all the good ones are killed in practicing[their faith]

after all to follow Christ and his life is to martyr yourself, tho those with a metaphysical bent would use 'self' in a more Buddhist sense.

as for your claim to not be afraid of death, well, I've been close to death as well, and familiarity did not breed comfort for me.

can I ask how you know not to be afraid of something you've never experienced?

or is your stance, I've never experienced it, so why should I fear it, not knowing whether it is an unpleasant experience or not?

Logic would say it's not rational to say death is nothing to be afraid of, if one has no data on the matter

all we can do is shrug our collective scientific shoulders

To live without fear of death has taught me to be more aware of my surroundings and I have also learned not to take unneccesary risks with my physical body. Sort of like living in moderation something I definitely did not do before. I want to extend life not fear death. It is inevitable. Having died for a short period on an operating table taught me alot. I got a true second chance. I used to mountain bike, now I run, that sort of thing. Age is a definite factor as well.

Awareness should not be confused with fear, the two shouldn't be confused. The unaware are much more likey to walk in front of a car. Fate isn't the only thing in play.

I've read Campbell, Armstrong, Borg, none of them sufficiently explained it.

On a battlefield, does not the battle also harm the fighter? Why double the injury by taking poison to kill the poison?

I say, go for the CURE! Stop at nothing to look for any way that works for you! Be open minded!

Joseph Campbell, student of myth and all things 'religious', used to use the term terror/joy when referring to religious phenomenon

Interestingly, the pleasure and pain centers in the brain are very closely linked [hypothalmic region I think]

so maybe that explains terror/joy

the human nervous system is wired to notice difference, so a reduction in fear[and the immediacy of life myth may preserve] naturally reduces that childlike joy we experience thru contrast

Myth and religion at their best preserve our immediate emotional experience of life and give us a buffer or shield from psychic entropy

But as with all things of value, there's a price we pay

----

''That there is in fact nothing to fear. Not even death''

Dying unsatisfied with unfinished business in this life is something to fear, and whether the actual process of dying apart from that is nothing to fear or not, well, when someone comes back from it and says it's a breeze...

you couldn't be more wrong.

letting go of that particular view of the bible and reality changes you in a fundamental way, which changes your life

different mind with which to perceive life, different life. The 'details' of life may not change, stiil a welder, still 5'10" still in debt, but YOU become different, which of a necessity changes your life

Part of it usually involves a reduction in fear as well as joy

Put faith in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets full first.

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."

the older you get the less 'sure' you'll get

the 'surety of youth' indeed

*sigh*

''The bible, koran, and anything written before modern knowledge is complete mythology.''

A friend tells me that certain mathematic formulas were invented BCE. like around the time of the Buddha

A ways before 'modern knowledge'

you may want to be more careful in your writing

but doubtless you just need a little seasoning

wisdom may not come with age, but perspective usually does

Which is none.

--Some viral disease can be prevented via vaccination. The most lethal strains of Human Papilloma Virus are among these.

--The most common sexually transmitted diseases (e.g. chlamydia) are not viral and can be cured with antibiotics if recognized. If ignored they can be transmitted with unfortunate results.

--There is STRONG evidence that proper condom usage reduces the risk of transmission of STDs (New Enland Journal of Medicine 354:2645-2654).

--While abstinence is the best way of reducing the spread of STDs, the teaching of abstinence only has not been successful.

sometimes it takes faith to move certain 'mountains' I guess

Even more reason to charge the couple with negligent homicide.

From http://www.healthgap.org/camp/pepfar.html:

"Some 32 million quality-approved condoms remain impounded in government warehouses while the U.S. government ramps up financing for abstinence-only approaches to HIV prevention. According to Ugandan AIDS activists, the government's actions will undermine community efforts to reduce HIV prevalence and HIV transmission. These trends away from scientifically sound, evidence-based prevention strategies are occurring in Uganda and in other countries hard-hit by the AIDS epidemic, such as Nigeria, South Africa, and Zambia."

the 'entire middle east' is 'inbred idiots'?

what about parts of Africa? they are also heavily religious, mostly muslim?

how come Africa gets a pass?

you're lucky I'm from NORTHERN Ohio, or I'd have to yell at you.

and four people gave this bigoted anti-semitic statement positives?

Its even bigoted in the context of religion-hating, pointing out specific regions and thereby religious persuasions

religion is inbreeding?

you could have at least said 'intellectual' inbreeding.

lame

and I guess I did yell at you, N ohio dweller or not

Statistically, abstinence-only programs show a HIGHER rate of unwanted pregnancy than more comprehensive sex education programs.

The topic is faith-based approaches to medicine as opposed to evidence-based approaches.

Both the family in this article and the President of the United States have caused harm by blindly holding on to faith-based approaches that have been conclusively shown to be ineffective.

I will never forget the day when I was about 9 that I was tossed out of Sunday School for questioning the teacher. And then my mom telling me it was alright to develop my own beliefs. That I didn't have to conform if I did not feel the need. That was the day the chains were taken off and I began to truly learn. Most kids never get that chance. I don't mind at all that we free thinkers are in the minority. At least we can now speak out. In the olden days I would likely have spent my days in a dungeon or they simply would have put me to death as a heretic.

Sheesh!

I won't devalue someones prayer belief just as I wouldn't want someone to devalue my belief in luck, hope etc...

but it has to remain personal, you cannot harm other as these parents harmed their child by not providing her with medical attention. Very selfish.

That was in reply to an elderly disabled couple who had unexpected bills and could not afford any food, and asked for help from the community.

Now maybe prayer can feel like support, comfort as a suppliment to REAL support from others, be it food, medical, housing etc...

If those parents wanted to believe that for themselves, so be it, but when you are responsible for anothers life, that is neglect and regardless of their religious views, I hope they are charged with negligent homicide.

--Well, no...Actually, what "speaks volumes" I think, is the fact that *you* and the Bushwipe above chose to zero in on that one aspect of my post and then you proceeded to lecture me on a point I never even tried to make. Where do I suggest that science and religion can't co-exist? Really, WHERE do you deduce that from what I wrote?

I never said the girl died because she didn't have insurance because I don't know if that was the case or not. However, given that Bush and the GOP (aka the "family values" party) have fought to deny health insurance to millions of children (essentially putting them in the same situation as this girl who DIED because her parents chose not to get her medical treatment) bringing up Bush and the GOP in the context of this story is perfectly reasonable. I'm sorry if you choose not to look beneath the surface.

--Here is the part I don't get (and which I also think a jury might find problematic). If you truly believe in the faith of God, why wait until your daughter is on the brink of death to suddenly decide that the Deity is... I don't know--maybe otherwise occupied and that *this* is the point where human intervention is needed? As judgemental as that question sounds, I really do not understand how it's possible to switch back and forth like that. Her father was once a freakin' COP! Come on...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html

Are you that obsessive over your hate of Bush that you have to say something about him every time you post? This topic has nothing to do with him or politics yet you must talk about him!

Its pathetic and sickening how some people can't forget about politics and stop pushing their agenda.

Poor girl, people have to learn that science and religion can co-exist and there is nothing in the bible against medical treatment. You can bet a million bucks that if the pope was sick he'd seek medical assistance, not a cure from God.

When my grandson was hit by a car doing 35 MPH. He shattered the windshield bounced off the car and landed on his feet 10 feet from the car. He walked over and asked a lady to call 911 then fell out. When the paramedics arrived the blood pressure was low and falling, he also had chalky white skin a sign of shock but also a sign of internal bleeding.

They calld in Life Flight and flew him to Loma Linda hospital. When the doctors saw him they were amazed. They did all their checks and xrays and found only bumps and bruises. The doctor told me he had just treated a girl wo git hit by a car going 15MPH and she died.

When I told him we were praying this doctor told me that he could not give me a logical reason for my grandson not have a broken back or ribs as well as internal bleeding.

Now you are all welcome to believe as you please. But I know God wrapped his mighty and protective hand around my grandson that day. I know it!

PS This time 2 years ago, chickenhawk wingers like you were flapping your gums nonstop and warning us that America would never put blacks,homos and a certain "San Francisco liberal" in charge of Congress. Your tiny little con crystal balls are shriveled up. Stop making predictions you can't back up. And have a nice day. ;-)

No wonder your party will never be in power again.

Not with her parents!

--But sadly that (or desperate hospital emergency room visits) is the approach Bush and the GOP Congress want the 10 million innocent uninsured American children (from whom they have fought ferociously to deny health insurance) to take when they need treatment for their cancers, decayed teeth, and broken bones. I guess it's just too bad our kids weren't born in Iraq. Sure, they'd live in fear of being bombed by us daily but at least we're funneling enough money into the infrastructure there (while our bridges and levees disintegrate right out from under us) such that Iraqi children can receive decent healthcare. God DAMN the Republican Party. ;-(

There is?

Why don't you present some?

Is that parent then condigned to a free "get out of jail" card?

Then there was Paul the Apostle: "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'" 2 Corinthians 12:7-9 Again, God said NO.

Having faith is believing what is not seen however, it is NOT an excuse for inaction. Do either of the parents work or do they just have faith God will provide all their needs? Sounds like the same sort of reasoning to me!

The point of the verses you quoted is the absolute necessity of trust in God's unlimited power, not a blank check for answered prayers. God has 3 answers for prayer: Yes. No. Wait.

Mary & Martha sent for Jesus immediately when Lazarus became ill. They had faith Jesus could heal him. However, Jesus intentionally waited until 4 days AFTER Lazarus had died to do anything. (At that time, the Jews believed the soul did not depart until after 3 days so Lazarus would have been considered beyond help.)

This isn't a point I would usually argue, but how far do we want to allow the government to control our private lives and how we raise our children?

Most consider withholding medical treatment unacceptable. Some consider exposing their children to second-hand smoke should be punishable by law. Child car seats are a good idea, but they're required in many (if not all) states. How about what you feed your kids? Certainly diet has a significant effect on health--why not regulate that as well?

Where do you stop?

Interesting that you should say that about "knowing the truth" within whichever context. An argument could be made about medicine working the same way. (I know, I know, the practice of medicine is based on experimentation and usually works as intended. And anyone who sees my comments out here knows I'd never make the same choice myself that these parents made--certainly not based on "faith."

That said, occasionally medicine also has unintended consequences and does more harm than good. And sometimes the ill actually do get better without medical care.

True story.

http://www.masskids.org/dbre/dbre_2.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/gues...

So, there you have it.

But, I think these parents were wrong. Faith should make you grateful that the Lord has provided resources capable of preserving life, not make you refuse them. Very sad that these people did not trust God to provide doctors and treatment to save her.

" "Because I believe that God, whomever you hold that to be,

hears all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is no." "

Is the biggest scam ever foisted on the religious. Sometimes God (god) doesn't answer your prayers because of X, Y or Z. What? Why pray to a supreme being who doesn't answer your prayers in the way that you want he, she or it to answer your prayers?

That's like saying you're dating a woman or a man that has broken up with you and married someone else. Oh, she or he will come around, they just haven't yet.

Move on.

Nothing is certain. Nothing is 100%. I am 99% sure that there is no god, but I am not 100% sure, because I can not prove it. Their intention may have been good, but the road to damnation is paved with good intentions.

If the parents beat the crap out of their kid ("spare the rod and spoil the child" sound familiar?) to save the child's soul from Hell and if they thought that selling the kiddie porn pictures was somehow "cleansing" the evil from her soul, those parents would also have the best of intentions, would they not?

Your position is indefensible.

of course, the parents could just be religious-reading-impared dummies that can't figure out when they're being swindled into phony religious beliefs because some twit in charge wants to hear himself talk or have a new excuse to bilk money out of suckers. (selling of indulgences, anyone?)

Somehow this reminds me of that."

Hmmm ... another completely moronic statement from a complete moron. What makes you think they weren't democrats? Lots and lots of democrats in Wisconsin -- that's how their corrupt democrat gov keeps getting elected as well as morons like Russ Feingold.

Yep, knew you were a whack-job. That you are an intolerant lefty isn't surprising, either.

99.9%. A reasonable person would seek medical treatment. I think it is a clear case of criminal neglect.

Now Ricky will probably tell ya to contact Budda or Darwin....but they are dead. j/k Ricky. Hang in there...

"Because I believe that God, whomever you hold that to be,

hears all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is no."

Healing is not a matter of illness but of health. However, when handled with arrogance and misunderstanding of the process, it can lead to greater illness and even death. It appears the parents were not listening for an answer to their prayers, but insisting on doing their own will over God's to prove a point. Then after their will failed, they excused it as God's.

I have seen reversals of illness that some would call miraculous. The reversal seems to occur after the afflicted person disengages, or detaches from the illness and sets an intention on health.

Good doctors are our teachers. They inform us on what we have and why we have it. Ultimately it is up to us to use the knowledge to return to health (if we want it), and sometimes outside assistance is required. The wise know when to use it.

Anyways, stupid parents. They should take their children away.

Matthew 7:8

For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 21:22

And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.

Mark 11:24

Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

Luke 11:10

For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

John 16:24

Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.

Is that too much to ask?

That seems a little unbalanced.